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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co (1 Leser)
Zum Ende gehen Neues Thema Beliebt: 0
TOPIC: Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co

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#229
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Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/03 19:30  
Wie sieht es eigentlich momentan aus.

Für Adelshochzeiten wird der Traviabund gefordert, weil ansonsten keine Rechtsicherheit über die Erbfolge und die Anerkennung der Kinder besteht? Jeder Traviabund führt bei Ehebruch zu einem Frevlermal? (Auch in Kulturen in denen es zum guten Ton gehört Liebhaber zu haben?) Es steht jedoch frei andere Götter für den Ehebund einzuspannen, bei denen dann im Trauungszeremoniell kein Treueschwur enthalten sein muss? Wie stehen die Kirchen zu politischen Ehen?
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#232
Darjin (Benutzer)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/03 19:38  
und die wichtigste Frage überhaupt: gilt das Frevlermahl auch schon bei prä-ehischer Untreue?

Quasi man ist schon verlobt und wacht doch in den falschen Betten auf
Aufgestanden aus dem Bettjin und dem Wahnsinn zugewandt,
lass uns dich ins Chaos stürzen, Vinsalt irres Chatterland.
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#233
Goldiger Olko (Benutzer)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/03 19:43  
Man könnte den Priester bestechen - damit er die Liturgieprobe verhaut.
In bunten Bildern wenig Klarheit,
Viel Irrtum und ein Fünkchen Wahrheit,
So wird der beste Trank gebraut,
Der alle Welt erquickt und auferbaut.
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#239
click (Benutzer)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/03 20:13  
na bei adligen nimtm man ja nicht irgendwelche niedrigen priester da komtm gleich das schwere geschütz und bei ner hochzeit ist das ritual ja derartig erleichtert.. da geht gar nichts

aber genau vorehelicher treubruch wie siehts damit aus?
caution:
i can go from zero to bitch in 6.8 seconds


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#242
MadCat (Admin)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/03 21:03  
Die al'anfaner Travianis machens richtig, gleich steinigen das untreue Gesocks!

Spass beiseite. Im Falle von Adeligen wird der Traviasegen nur zur rechtlichen Absicherung der Erbfolge verlangt, so daß ein Priester einer anderen Kirche den eigentlichen Bund schliessen kann.

Allgemein: es wird nicht überall vor Travia geheiratet. Prinzipiel ist der Eheschluss durch viele Kirchen möglich (solange man Freier ist... was wohl auf die meisten Charaktere zutrifft ).
Auch wird ein versehentlicher Seitensprung im rahjanischen Sinne nicht gleich ein Mahl des Frevels nach sich ziehen. Vorsatz tendenziell schon, aber wer mit solchen Vorsätzen einen Traviabund schliesst, hat es auch wahrlich nicht anders verdient.

Wer sich genauer befassen mag: GKM, S.9
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#243
Auribiel (Admin)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/03 21:04  
Aloha ohe, ich denke ich kann da sehr zur Klärung beitragen:

Es ist zwischen einem Traviabund (der an sich nur Hochzeit bedeutet) und einem vor Travia geschlossenen Traviabund zu unterscheiden.

Im ersten Falle ist durchaus auch eine Adelshochzeit möglich, auch wenn man vor Rondra oder Rahja heiratet, denn: Nur die Erbfolge selbst muss vor Travia bzw. mit einem Traviapriester als Teilaspekt des gesamten Ehegelöbnisses abgesichert werden.

Zumindest ergab dies eine längere Diskussion in einem anderen Forum und genaueres Einsehen des Regelwerkes (AG). D.h.: Auch nach dem Traviabund, vor Praios oder einem der anderen 10 geschlossen ist eheliche Treue nicht absolut zwingend, wenn nicht gewünscht und von einem Traviageweihten besiegelt. Erst wenn Mann oder Frau so unvorsichtig ist und die traviaabgesegnete Erbfolge durch die Folgen eines Seitentrittes gefährdet würde das Frevlermal greifen.

Kompliziert, ist aber so... sonst wäre das Frevlermahl im Horasreich wohl ein Standessymbol, beim dortigen Favoriten- und Mätressenwesen

Beitrag geändert von: Auribiel, am: 2007/07/03 21:06
'Wir sind umso authentischer, je mehr wir uns der Vorstellung annähern, die wir von uns selbst haben.' - die Adrago


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#397
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/05 10:35  
also Seitensprung ist okay solange man das nicht mit der Absicht tut, einen erbberechtigen Bastard zu zeugen?

Und was ist, wenn da doch leider mal einer bei entsteht - oder schlimmer noch: Der Gemahl bringt's einfach nicht und Frau Barönchen sucht sich nen Lover damit sie ihrem Gemahl, dem Herrn Baron, nen Erben unterschieben kann und er aus lauter Verzweiflung ob seiner Unfähigkeit Erben zu zeugen nicht den Freitod wählen muss.

@madcat: nein, ich bin nicht dein Freier - so viel Spam muss sein.

Beitrag geändert von: Darjin, am: 2007/07/05 12:53
Aufgestanden aus dem Bettjin und dem Wahnsinn zugewandt,
lass uns dich ins Chaos stürzen, Vinsalt irres Chatterland.
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#398
MadCat (Admin)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/05 12:04  
Jeder Bruch eines vor Travia geschlossenen heiligen Eides kann ein Mal des Frevels mit sich bringen (kann, muss nicht. Liegt im Ermessen der Travia ). Inwieweit tsajanische oder rahjanische "Hintergründe" dies beeinflussen ist Götter- sprich SL-Entscheid. Rein regeltechnisch kann aus jedem Bruch des GROSSEN EIDSEGENS ein Frevelmal hervorgehen, und zwar ohne Zutun der Priesterschaft.

Siehe GKM, S.9f
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#402
Auribiel (Admin)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/05 14:48  
@MadCat:

Ich denke, es geht eher darum, ob denn eheliche Treue nun explizit Bestandteil des Gelöbnisses ergo großen Eidsegen ist. Hierzu muss der Eid nicht speziell vor Travia bzw. nur in Anwesenheit eines Travianis geschossen werden.

@Darjin:

Daher würde ich folgendes vermuten: eheliche Treue was speziell die Erbfolge angeht sollte bei Adligen Bestandteil des Ehegelöbnisses und großen Eidsegen sein. Man verhindert ungewollte Schwangerschaft wohl vor allem mit dem vielbeliebten Rahjakraut. Und wenn doch mal was schiefgeht und ein Bastard gezeugt wird... ich überlege gerade, ob das nicht wirklich ein Mal des Frevlers nach sich ziehen könnte. Auf diese Weise merkt man dann auch, dass der Erbe ein Bastard und nicht rechtmäßig ist: Menschen kann man täuschen, die Götter nicht. Wäre eine sehr gute Möglichkeit die Berechtigung des Erben zu prüfen
'Wir sind umso authentischer, je mehr wir uns der Vorstellung annähern, die wir von uns selbst haben.' - die Adrago


'The Wolves are out there!'


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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/05 15:01  
@Auri

Ich seh datt so: Wer den Grossen Eidsegen vor Travia eingeht ist vollständig an deren Formel gebunden. Wenn ein Adeliger vor Rahja heiratet gelten für ihn Rahjas Normen. Die Anwesenheit eines Travianis ist eher eine rechtliche Absicherung. Sich im travianischen Sinne Treue zu schwören ist eine freiwillige Sache. Siehe dazu GKM Seite 9; Zitat: "..., andere travianische Werte wie eheliche Treue, Gastfreundschaft etc aber nur auf Wunsch Bestandteil des Eides sind". Wenn bei einem Seitensprung also ein uneheliches Kind rauskommt, dann interessiert das Travia genauso wenig wie Rahja. Das würde wohl eher gesellschaftliche Konsequenzen haben. Und wenn die Leute den Eid von einem Rondrageweihten sprechen lassen, dann können sie vermutlich durch die Gegend poppen bis sie blind sind, aber zum Krieg haben sie wieder zu Hause zu sein


Beitrag geändert von: MadCat, am: 2007/07/05 15:06
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#404
Auribiel (Admin)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2007/07/05 15:41  
@MadCat:

Ich verstehe was du meinst und sehe folgendes Problem:

Guter Tradition folgend widerspricht sich die DSA-Redax bei der Festlegung des Traviabundes bzw. der Berechtigung/Absegnung der Erblimitation.

Es wären also folgende Sichtweisen möglich:

a) Die Erblinie ist kein Bestandteil des eigentlichen Großen Eidsegens des Ehegelöbnisses da:

'...während die Priestersachaft der Travia den Eid für die Erblegitimation besiegelt (der übrigens auch nachträglich geschlossen werden kann)...' GKM, S. 9

Kein Eidbruch, wenn Bastarde gezeugt werden etc.


b) Die Erblinie ist Bestandteil des Großen Eidsegens:

'Die wenigsten Staaten akzeptieren jedoch die Erblinie adliger Gemeinschaften, die nicht auch unter Mitwirkung von Travia-Geweihten besiegelt wurden, um die Eidformel im Schwur zu gewährleisten, dass die Erbinnen von den beiden schwörenden Parteien abstammen.' AG, S. 98

Im zweiten Falle wäre es wohl dann ein Eidbruch vor der Gottheit unter dem die Ehe besiegelt wurde, sobald ein unrechtmäßiger Erbe anerkannt wird. Damit ziehe ich meine Aussage vom Post vorher zurück.

Für weitere Anfragen empfehle ich, die Redax zu löchern und im Weiteren um eine eindeutigere Formulierung zu bitten
'Wir sind umso authentischer, je mehr wir uns der Vorstellung annähern, die wir von uns selbst haben.' - die Adrago


'The Wolves are out there!'


The Girl who silenced the World for 5 Minutes
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#8183
Taramis (Benutzer)
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Re:Traviabund Ehebruch und Co 2011/09/13 22:02  
Hallo zusammen!

Bin in einem AB genau auf diese Frage gestoßen. Eine zusätzliche Frage ist, was mit Ehebrechern rein (kirchen-)rechtlich passiert.

Hintergrund:
Eine wohlhabende freie Bürgerin des Mittelreiches (Inhaberin eines Handelshauses) heiratet einen anderen (weniger wohlhabenden) Freien. Da in der entsprechenden Stadt auch ein Travia-Tempel vorhanden ist, wurde der Bund auch unter einem Travia-Priester geschlossen. (Ob hier ein Großer Eidsegen Bestandteil war, ist offen, jedoch eher unwahrscheinlich in meinen Augen. Auf jeden Fall ging es nicht darum, eine Erbfolge zu festigen.)

In der Zeit der Ehe lässt sich nun die Freie von einem niederen Edlen freien und ... wie der Zufall es will ... entsteht daraus ein Kindelein.

Der Ehemann kommt nach und nach hinter das Geheimnis, jagt die Ehebrecherin mit ihrem Bastard davon und reißt sich das Handelsraus sowie das restliche Hab und Gut der Frau unter den Nagel. Die Frau und das Kind stehen nun mittellos da, wobei die Frau nicht wagt, sich dagegen zu wehren, da sie dann mit einer offiziellen Anklage des Mannes bei der Travia-Kirche zu rechnen hat, was sie öffentlich als Ehebrecherin brandmarken würde (öffentlicher Namensverlust).

Wie würde wohl die Traviakirche das Schicksal der Frau und vor allem des Bastards sehen? Welche Rechte würde man zugestehen?
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Strict Standards: Non-static method mosHTML::makeOption() should not be called statically in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/components/com_fireboard/sources/fb_forumjump.php on line 56

Strict Standards: Non-static method mosHTML::makeOption() should not be called statically in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/components/com_fireboard/sources/fb_forumjump.php on line 56

Strict Standards: Non-static method mosHTML::makeOption() should not be called statically in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/components/com_fireboard/sources/fb_forumjump.php on line 56

Strict Standards: Non-static method mosHTML::makeOption() should not be called statically in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/components/com_fireboard/sources/fb_forumjump.php on line 56

Strict Standards: Non-static method mosHTML::makeOption() should not be called statically in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/components/com_fireboard/sources/fb_forumjump.php on line 56

Strict Standards: Non-static method mosHTML::selectList() should not be called statically in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/components/com_fireboard/sources/fb_forumjump.php on line 70
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Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate.php on line 1096

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate/Reader/File.php on line 68

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate/Reader/File.php on line 72

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate/Reader.php on line 564

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate/Reader.php on line 411

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate/Reader.php on line 395

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate.php on line 1127

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate.php on line 1604

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate.php on line 2269

Strict Standards: Non-static method patErrorManager::isError() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /www/htdocs/w007e888/htdocs/includes/patTemplate/patTemplate.php on line 2305